Should I tie stopper knots in the ends of my rap ropes? If so, how? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Stuart Marlatt, 3/23/1993

Good idea: whenever you cannot be certain your rope ends at a safe point. When you can't see the end of the ropes, when you aren't absolutely certain of the rap route.

Bad idea: when the knot will dramatically increase the chance of badly fouling the toss-down.

From: Bob Harrington, 3/24/1993

It's a good idea if you are doing 164' rappels, but it's a bad idea if you tend to forget to untie it before you try to retrieve the rappel.

From: Adrian McNair, 2/20/2002

I'd say that knotting the ends of the ropes in all circs is really good. In New Hampshire I was bailing off a climb in the rain and found the ends didn't reach... not by a long shot. I hadn't tied the ends, it was wet and slippery, and I hadn't brought any prussik slings. Nothing like a mini-epic to set things straight in your head the next time around....

From: Ken Cline, 2/21/2002

Even when you can see the ends of the rope on the flat ground at the base of a short cliff?

From: Wendy Culshaw, 6/16/1995

I was taught to always tie a knot at the end of the rope, even if it's just a short drop and you can see that the rope touches the bottom. Good habit to get in to, and it's impossible to rap off the end. People do die by going past the end of the rope when it is so easy to avoid it.

From: Scott Linn, 3/31/1993

Although in the general case someone should be rappelling slowly, and keeping an eye out, etc., guano happens. Too heavy a pack, not enough friction, hair/shirts getting tangled, etc. can either put you out of control or pull your attention away just long enough to cause a major problem.

From: Niklas Bjornerstedt, 3/31/1993

I know of a number of lethal accidents where a person has calmly, in good wheather, gone of the end of a rappel rope. There are many reasons why this can happen, the most common being that people are fallable. The only way to minimize risks in climbing is by using techniques where you can survive the mistakes you make.

From: David English, 3/26/1993

I usually don't bother with knots in the end of the rope cuz I know I will be going slow and careful. However, when I rap in the dark or around a corner or into an alcove, damn right I have a knot at the end.

From: Frank Stock, 2/20/2002

I subcribe to teaching the theory of knotting ends if in doubt, but not all the time. Teach safe and good practices that are common, and give a examples of good and bad times to knot the ends.

From: Wayne Trzyna, 3/25/1993

As for the down side, if you knot the ropes, you run a risk of getting the knot hung up in a crack. Also you inhibit their ability to untwist themselves while hanging free.

From: Eric Coomer, 8/25/1999

Try it on a windy day- recipe for disaster. It's easy enough to have a rope blow around a corner and get stuck on something nasty without a knot in the end let alone with one...

I don't use stopper knots- ever. I am very paranoid on long raps- especially if I haven't done the particular rappel before. Ever vigilante and all that crap.

My point was that instead of stopper knots, I try to pay close attention. I'd rather have my brain engaged than rely on a knot at the end of the rope- yeah, yeah, this is the whole reason people use knots to prevent an accident in times of accidental brain disengagement.

From: Roger Leuthner, 3/23/1993

Knots at/in the end of ropes tend to get caught in unlikely and unwanted places. Knots at the end of ropes also tend to be 'forgotten', which is kind of a pain when you're pulling your rope through the anchor. Ranges from "damn" to "oh my god we can't get down".

From: Duane Jacobson, 3/23/1993

There is the (hopefully remote) chance that you will forget to untie the knot before pulling the rope through the rappel anchor, leaving you in a potentially dicey situation. If it's a rappel that you've done before or you can clearly see the rope hit the ground, there's certainly no reason for the knot.

A knot could also be a royal pain in a low-angle gully where it could get caught in talus or bushes.

From: George Bell, 3/2/1998

I rarely use knots for three reasons. First, over half the rappels I do end up on the ground and before I start the rap I can see that both ends reach. In that case there is no need for a knot. Second, on multiple rappels, it slows you down to have to pull up one end every time to tie a knot in it and re-toss. When you have 15 rappels to do, tieing knots can easily make the difference between reaching the ground in daylight or darkness. Finally, knots seem to result in more snarls, thus more time.

From: John Byrnes, 3/2/1998

Knots get jammed. The wind blows the rope off to the side of the rappel, the knots get jammed and you're already halfway down a double rope rappel. The rope is jammed, oh let's say 50 feet to your left, at about your level. Can you say pendulum?

Added to that, as your partner mentions, you need to remember to remove the knot for every rappel. Just one more thing to remember when your racing the darkness or storm. And it always seems to me that the wind will grab that loose end and whip it somewhere where you can't reach it. So now how do you untie it?

So in conclusion, I rarely knot the ends. However if I'm rapping in the dark over an unknown wall, or there's some other extenuating circumstance, I may tie knots.

From: Karl Baba, 8/25/1999

When the situation really calls for it, it use stopper knots, but I tie one on each rope end. THat way the rope ends twist independantly and don't make a dangerous cluster at the bottom of the ropes.

From: Steve Loitz, 2/27/1998

Tying two ends together invites snarls and catches terribly. I recommend rather tying nail knots (i.e., fisherman's knots) on each end and throwing separately.

From: Keith Jewell, 8/26/1999

I couldn't agree more with you. I don't know who thought up the idea of tying the ends together, but it was not an enlightened person.

From: Andy Waddington, 5/19/1992

Tying a knot in the end of the rope is effective, and a useful hint is to make the knot a BIG figure eight so you can stand in the loop. The one hazard is that the knot shortens the rope.

From: Brian in SLC, 2/20/2002

I suppose if I think there's a chance I'll pop off the end of a rope, or will come up short enroute to a ledge or anchor, then I tie a figure eight on a bite in each rope end rather than knotting the ends together. That way, the rope doesn't get all twisty and I can clip those bites into my harness for safety if I need to hang and set an anchor.

From: Bruce Bailey, 5/19/1999

Don't forget that we've seen the knot go THROUGH a carabiner brake system...

From: Irishman, 2/23/2002

I tested the stopper knot (Knots for climbers, Luebben, pg 24) while hanging from the rafter in my garage. I used a 10.5 mm Cyris Dry and a Kong figure 8. This was setup as single line rappel.

I couldn't get the stopper knot to slide through a figure 8 while in a short free fall. I can image a longer free fall compressing the knot and getting through, but I didn't try that. ;-) I would also expect to find that a smaller diameter rope would be even more marginal. Even so, I can't imagine getting past the knot during a normal controlled descent with my brake hand in place.

A normal two line rappel would take up more volume in the opening, and make the stopper knot more effective.

From: Newt Bailey, 8/26/1999

On the subject of putting knots in the ends of the rope: if you're feeling like you're getting seriously tired/freaked etc. and therefore need this added security then BEWARE. Once you start getting that tired there's a reasonable chance that you'll pull the rope without first removing the stopper knot from the end that's heading up. The rope then gets stuck in a crack or in the anchor and things get nasty. Tying both end together is safer in this respect as it will be pretty obvious if you start pulling without first untying the knot (though I concede that this can lead to messy snarl-ups at the ends). Anyway, even if you don't tie separate stopper knots in the two ends, it's still a good idea to have the rope running throught your partners hand as you pull the rope so (s)he will feel if there's a knot in it. Ropes can tie themselves in knots during a rap so you have to check for that even when you didn't tie a stopper knot.

From: Brutus of Wyde, 2/21/2002

The bottom line:

Whether you knot the ends or no, it is EXTREMELY critical to maintain an awareness of where the both ends of the rope are with respect to yourself and the next anchor station or the ground. It is also extremely critical that the rappel setup be double-checked to make certain it is set up correctly, and that both strands (in a doubled-rope rappel) are included in the setup. If long tails are involved, a third check must be done to assure that the rappel is not set up on one or both of the tails. THESE are the hard-and-fast rules that everyone, including the first-day beginners, should be taught.

From: Hal Murray, 2/22/2002

It's probably important to know when not to rap.

I have a friend who won't rap at night. It's against his religion. He learned from the ANAM prayer book from many years ago. For several years running all the fatal accidents in Yosemite were raping off the end of the rope in the dark. During the same time period, no climbers froze to death due to unplanned bivys. Not a bad religion. It's nice to have somebody in the group reminding us of that possibility.

From: Brutus of Wyde, 2/20/2002

I teach beginners this simple rule: If you are unsure that the rope reaches the ground or the next anchors, let someone else go down first.

From: Martin Shelley, 3/24/1993

If I am just abseiling (as its usually called in Britain) in an Alpine situation (with a rucksack on, ten inch hailstones etc) I don't tie a knot as I know from experience that they can get stuck (what fun that can be!). What I do instead is attach a French prussik via an extender to my harness. This means that as you go down, you can pull the prussik knot down with you and conversely stop at any stage my letting go of it. That way, you can see end of the rope and hang around while you work out what to do. Also good if you get clobbered etc.

From: Dawn Alguard, 2/21/2002

OK, but just to put this in context for this thread, one of the benefits of using a prusik is NOT that it'll keep you from rapping off the end of the rope. Even if the prusik is placed above the backup device, studies seem to indicate that the chances of it locking up in time aren't good. If the prusik is below the device, there's no chance of it locking up in time.

From: Will Nichols, 2/22/2002

The friction knot/prusik backup technique isn't meant to keep you from going of the end of the rope. It's meant to stop an unconscious or injured climber, or as an aid to clear jammed material from the rope. It's no subsitute for a knot in the end of the rope.

Should I tie in with a bowline or a retraced Figure 8? / Is it safe to tie in with a bowline? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Douglas McMullin

I have no issue with the knot, but the fact is like it or not - people tend to screw it up! Simple as that.

From: Martin Whittaker

I've often been recommended to use a bowline to tie on to the rope. It is supposed to be easier to undo after taking a fall (reference: The Mountaineering Skills Training Handbook and The Handbok of Climbing). If you've ever tried to undo a figure-of-eight which as taken a hard fall then you will understand this benefit.

However, The Handbook of Climbing does also state: "[the bowline] does not function well if subjected to a three-way loading, when it can slip or even invert." This seems to support Mr Lee's viewpoint.

The BMC knots booklet doesn't say anything about three-way loading, although it does say that the knot can work loose, and if tied too loosely it may turn in to a slip knot. They emphasise the importance of finishing the bowline with a stopper knot, and then go on to describe the "bowline variant" in which the tail is wound round alongside the initial loop and then threaded back through the 'hook'. This version they say is less likely to work loose once tightened, is stronger and more secure, and doesn't need a stopper knot.

The Handbook of Climbing describes another variation, the double-knotted bowline: "...a second loop is laid on top of the initial turn and completed as for the standard bowline. This is stronger than the basic knot and less prone to inverting."

On the whole I'd say that the advice regarding bowlines is somewhat confusing, but everyone agrees that the figure-of-eight is a bitch to untie after loading.

From: David Kastrup

Single bowlines do not like to be loaded on the loop. If you clip something into the loop (a mistake which you might not know to be one), and that gets loaded while the main rope doesn't, the bowline may invert and untie.

More precisely: if the load on the loop is way more than the load on the standing line, the bowline can untie. This cannot happen if you fall into the rope. It can happen, if you (say) thread a long sling through the loop of the bowline that you have tied in with, and clip that sling into an anchor. Then lean back and belay or do something similar. So attach slings etc. directly to your harness, and not to your bowline. Which is common sense, really. But strange people in strange situations sometimes do strange things.

From: Mike Garrison

Knots have at least two characteristics that are important for something like this.

One is "strength". It is the ratio of the breaking strength of the knotted rope compared to the breaking strength of an unkotted rope. That depends mainly on the way the rope bends onto itself. (Knots always reduce the strength of the rope. If you want to form a loop in a rope or join two ropes without reducing the strength, you need to splice them.) The bowline is a fairly strong knot.

The other characteristic, which is the one the bowline really falls down on, is "security". When the knot is unloaded, can random vibrations cause the knot to loosen or untie? Figure 8 knots are very secure, but bowlines are one of the least secure knots.

From: John Byrnes

And that's why a climbing bowline is always finished in one of several ways

From: David Kastrup

Basically, there are two variants, with the loose end ending "in" the loop or "outside" or so. Both are pretty much equivalent.

The main problem is that a bowline will not hold when loaded across its loop. So don't clip anything to its loop.

And that is the real problem also with getting it wrong. You can tie a bowline that has some of the four strands going into it switched. The worst variant, of course, is the one where you have just the strand that should not be loaded exclusively in the bowline at the standing end. This bowline variant will be tight and stable. It will also invert and untie when given a heavy fall.

So if you have learned the bowline, it is worth having it checked from time to time until you can tie it in your sleep. If you mix up the procedure regularly, you won't notice until a heavy fall.

From: Mike Swann

According to all recognised knotting authorities, the bowline with the end "inside" the loop is more secure (less prone to slip). Of course it probably makes no difference with a stopper tied.

From: Ken Cline

As I recall, John Long's _How to Rock Climb_ recommends the double loop version. I view it as an improvement and teach it in preference to the normal bowline. Either way, I view back-up knots (or back-up variations like the rewoven bolwline [FOTH 6th ed, p. 119]) as necessary with bowlines.

From: Rex Pieper

The Double Loop version is even better if you cross those loops over each other forming a clove hitch.

From: Brent Ware

But practice, as tying the clove hitch one way makes it easier to untie the knot after you've fallen on it, and the other way makes it harder. Both are safe.

See also:

ALTREC.COM - Climb: Skills: Tying Knots
How do I tie a [whatever] knot? on Tradgirl

How do I clip a bolt to minimize the possibility of self-unclipping? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Karl Lew

When you clip the rope into a draw, the rope coming from the belayer should be closest to the rock, and the rope should go through the biner out towards you. If you clip the other way (i.e., backclip), your rope will be in towards the wall. Once you are backclipped, a fall can unclip you from the rope. Go see Using and understanding carabiners from Petzl.

From: Todd Mummert

The principle behind the danger is that since the rope is running from the front of the biner to the back (against the rock) as it rises, then any falls that occur may have the rope in a loop as it hits the biner. If this loop falls across the biner gate, it could cause the gate to open. Get a rope and biner out and see for yourself.

I'm not saying it will cause the gate to open, but it's possible. It's more likely if the gate opening is down, and the biner is not free to move. It's popular for sport climbing draws to be stiff enough (Petzl draws for example, biners held in place with rubber "strings") that this is a real issue.

From: Bob Wightman

Just tried this out on our inglenook fireplace (God this is sad!) with the following set up:

Tie-off with captive lower crab facing left Rope back clipped i.e. the *sharp* end exits from the back of the crab. *leader* to right of nut/crab combination

A *fall* resulted in the rope unclipping in about 1/3 of the tests.

Changing the tie-off for a traditional non-captive type I was unable to make the rope unclip as the lower crab was able to twist to align itself with the force.

From: James Meadlock

this pic shows a proper clip... rope goes from belayer, out (away from rock) thru carabiner.... if the rope goes from belayer in thru the carabiner (toward the rock), then it's a back-clip...

Play with a quickdraw & a rope on the couch... it's easy to cause the gate to open when back-clipped (especially with bent gate carabiners).

From: Jay Tanzman

For sport draws, set up your draws with the gates of the biners facing the same way. Here's why: When a route proceeds diagonally up, as the climber passes the bolt, the rope pulls the draw up, and it pivots on the bolt. The draw should, of course, be placed such that the bottom biner's gate is facing away from the direction that the route traverses, so that the rope runs over the spine of the biner, rather than the gate. However, if the biners on the draw have been oriented with gates opposed, then, as the draw is pulled up by the rope, the gate of the biner on the bolt end of the draw can be pulled through the bolt hanger. In a fall, this can cause the biner to unclip, or the biner to become loaded across the gate, causing the biner to fail. In contrast, if the two biners on the draw have been oriented with their gates on the same side, then it will be the spine of the biner that gets pulled through the hanger, which, in a fall, is less likely to cause the biner to fail.

From: Michael Riches

You should have draws that are opposed also, if you have all of them the same direction then say the hanger is to the right of you, you clip the hanger with the draw, keeping proper orientation with the gate "away" from the bolt, this will put the gate of the rope biner facing you and as you climb above, you can still unclip in a fall.

It is important to keep the gate of the hanger side biner facing away from the bolt and it is important to keep the spine of the rope side biner facing the direction of the climb. With the clip off to your right and both biners oriented the same on your draw this is not possible unless you reverse one of the biners.

From: Chris Harmston

I think the probability of self unclipping is about the same for the rope side and the bolt side. I know of at least half a dozen instances of both. I have yet to observe an increased level of occurance with wire gated biners though. Most people believe that they suffer from a greater level of unclipping. Time will tell. I have seen about 24 broken carabiners in open gate during the last 8 years. Most are due to interactions with the rock. Some are due to interactions with the bolt. 20% were attributed to whiplash. Half involved zippering of other pieces of equipment. 20% or a little less occurred in sport climbing where the vast majority of falls take place.

From: David Emrich

There's a good unclip picture [note: of a biner self-unclipping from a hanger] here: Climerware This quote from that page implies that self unclipping is more of a problem for wiregates: This can happen with wiregates or even with regular carabiners whose gates have edges that can catch the bolt. The page also has advice from BD's Chris Harmston on how to avoid it.

From: Nathan Sweet

A fun demo is to go get a few hangers (you can always dremel them out for rivet hangers if you never bolt anything) and attach them to a beam or plank. Use a lag bolt to simulate a Rawl and a dowel screw with a nut to simulate a wedge anchor. Then start cliping and twisting to see how the biners/gates interact with the hangers and nuts.

I always try to clip the hanger "gate away" from the nut/bolt. If it is a critical placement I use a locker. F*** the weight.....I'm not that good and I need the exercize.

From: David Kreindler

Clip the draw according to the orientation needed for the rope-end biner. Then clip the rope. Finally, if the bolt-end biner's gate is on the wrong side, simply flip the bolt-end biner over in place.

From: Michael Riches

Depending on what type of draws you are using this would work...with the exception of those real sick clips that are made just in time. There are times that you simply have to move through and you won't be so apt to spend time fiddling with biner orientation. But, you can pretty much tell, even at a distance what the next clip will need for biner orientation...you need only two types of draws racked...ones facing the same way and ones opposed. If you have climbed a climb many times you should have a pretty good idea of what the clips are anyway. If it is a particularly easy climb, welll...flip the biners.

From: Chris Harmston

However, you must also take into consideration the interaction of the carabiner with the rock. Generally I feel that rock interactions are more significant than those with the bolt head. I would rather risk the gate opening by the bolt head than by the rock. Why I say this I do not have solid evidence for it is just a feeling from observations in the field.

From: Thor Lancelot Simon

It's well established that carabiner gates can pop open because the spine of the carabiner hit the rock.

From: Jay Tanzman

There are at least three clipping criteria (ignoring interaction with rock features):

1. Bottom biner's gate should face away from the line of travel.
2. Top biner's gate should face away from the line of travel.
3. Top biner's gate should face away from the bolt.

I think there is general agreement that #1 is the top priority and should always be satisfied. Now...

...#1 and #2 can always be simultaneously satisfied if all draws are set up with biners facing the same way.

...#1 and #3 can always be simultaneously satisfied if one has a selection of draws, some with biners opposed, some with biners facing the same direction. However, this requires carrying extra draws/weight, and the organizational skills and presence of mind -- possibly while desperate -- to get your hands on the right draw. Is there sufficient _real_ risk from having the gate facing the bolt to warrant this additional weight and effort.

...#2 and #3 cannot always be simultaneously satisfied, so it would be useful to know which is more important.

Of course, you can get around the whole issue of top biner orientation by carrying some draws with locking top biners. Perhaps that is the solution. On the other hand, I know some clips where I couldn't fiddle with a locking top biner.

From: Michael Riches

I always carry two draws with lockers at each end for those questionable clips. And I do use them, this is something that Chris Harmesten suggested awhile back that I have adopted...There are some light weight small lockers out on the market just perfect for this...You don't need to rack up with all lockers but there are times that I like a locker...even if it "is" just for that warm fuzzy feeling.

See also:

Avoiding The Infamous Self Unclipping Quickdraw on Chockstone
Some Realities About Carabiners In General from LURock

How do I belay safely with a Gri-Gri? / How can a Gri-Gri fail? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Eric Hirst

There are several ways for a GriGri to "fail." The following list should account for most GriGri drops:

1. Threaded backwards
2. Belayer holding it open
3. Rope < 10mm
4. Brake hand off rope
5. Very light climber / rope drag (slow slide, could lead bad belayer to commit sins 2 and 4)
6. Biner unlocked
7. Biner not on harness properly
8. Ice (?)
9. Excess creativity -- new ways to make things fail are being devised every day.

From: Julie Haas

The dichotemy is this: they are indeed often safer than other belay devices. For that reason, they're often found in the hands of beginners or newbies, who haven't the slightest clue of how to 'use it properly'! What they learn, is that they don't really need to worry about belaying properly, this here thingy will do it for them.

From: MadDog

Gri-gris are not foolproof, especially with a fool at the helm.

Belayer holds non-brake side of rope too hard

From: Steven

The gri gri works by locking when the rope goes through the system at a certain speed...I'm no physicist...so I don't know if I mean speed or am referring to force or what...you who have a gri gri know what I mean. If the rope is allowed to fly through the system fast, the device works. However, when someone is used to using an ATC or something else...there enters a problem.

If the belayer is catching a fall, the natural reflex of the BRAKE hand should be to grab a hold of the rope tight and make sure it is in the proper position to brake the fall. The GUIDE hand however should also be holding onto the rope to provide stability etc. BUT, if the GUIDE hand is holding onto the rope so tight (this too is a natural reflex when you have a climber make a sudden fall) that the GUIDE hand actually pulls down on the rope towards the gri gri...the clenched hand actually SLOWS the rope down by providing extreme fear induced friction on the rope ahead of the locking mechanism of the gri gri. By not allowing the rope to reach the spead/acceleration/force necessary for the gri gri to spring into action literally, the rope continues to funnel through the belayers hands (YES, this burns the skin RIGHT DOWN...just ask my belayer) at a very fast but NOT death inducing fall velocity. The reflex of the belayer when seeing their climber falling and not feeling the device kick in...is to grip harder with both hands...this furthers the problem by slowing the rope down even more and freaks the belayer out more...and a vicious cycle continues.

My experience was that I was on a very long, extremely overhanging (horizontal) gym lead climbing wall (Rockhead's in Toronto) and I bailed on a climb. In the blink of an eye, I was about 40' up horizontal, and then I'm sitting on my butt. I look over at my belayer...his eyes were WIIIIIIDDDDE open. A few seconds later...we look at his hands, and the friction burns took about 3 wks to heal before he could climb again. I fell at a quick rate...fast enough to get me down in a surprising hurry...but not fast enough to cause damage (except if I dropped my head on the ground or something like that). A death-inducing speed drop would have caused the gri gri to kick into place.

Bottom line, if you are using a gri gri and catching a fall, grab firmly with the BRAKE hand...or not at all (that is the point of the gri gri...to act as a back up in case the hands are not on), and DO NOT DEATH GRIP THE GUIDE HAND ROPE...if anything let go of the guide hand or grip loosely and allow the device to work.

From: John

I have been on the receiving end of such a belay. It was in the gym and my father was doing the belaying. It must be said that my father is the kind of guy that needs things repeated to him many many times before he actually does it. Anyway I was doing this lead route and was just about at the anchors. I had struggled up since several time I was lifting my belayer as he forgot to feed (the grigri would lock up). With his left hand on the climber side of the rope he was now feeding. I fell and he instinctively tried to hold the fall with this left hand rather than left the grigri work. So here I am watching the draws go by me as the ground gets closer. I was falling ass first so I was kind of horizontal. Eventually the burning sensation made him let go of the rope and I got stopped. I put my feet down and stood up. Had I not been horizontal I probably would've snapped my ankles.

From: Brad Baker

I dropped my partner about 20 feet when he took a lead fall while gym climbing. He didn't deck, but ended up about 5 feet above the ground and I was up in the air next to him. The gri gri didn't fail, it was human error. For some reason, I tightly grabbed with my brake hand and my feeding hand. The tension I applied to the rope prevented the gri gri from locking. I kept trying to stop the fall with both hands, burning the hell out of my upper hand. When the heat got too much, I let go of the upper hand and the gri gri stopped the fall as designed. Ouch.

From: Aaron Rough

So the first time I used a GriGri was on a lead belay of a friend on an easy climb for him, or at least one he didn't expect to fall off of. Needless to say, he did fall off and I did my usual grip with my left hand and lock off with my right. The fall was bad enough to where the rope was ripped through my left hand, but I expected the GriGri to lock off the fall, so I didn't have a super strong grip on my right hand.

What happened though was I took enough of the force of the fall from my grip with my left hand that the GriGri did not cam. The rope started whipping through the device and pulled the rope right out of my right hand. The only thing that saved my partner from decking was I literally clenched my right hand on the running rope and it got sucked part of the way into the device, thus causing it to cam up and stop the fall.

Holding the lever open while lowering

From: Hank Moon, Technical Information Manager, Petzl America

The practice of lowering the climber “using primarily the brake handle” is potentially dangerous and contrary to the technical information which comes with the Grigri:

From Grigri technical notice:

When descending or lowering a climber with this device, control is maintained by the brake hand on the rope, not by the handle. This device can help eliminate some potential belaying errors, but not all of them. Our experience with it indicates that the problem with making a product that tries to make climbing less risky, is that climbers may act as though there's no risk at all. Don't make that mistake: this device is not a substitute for skilled, vigilant belaying.

From Petzl website:

Warning: while descending with the GRIGRI - braking is done with the brake hand on the free end of the rope, just as with any other descending device. The handle is not the brake and the person rappelling must be completely aware of this fact. As with any other rappelling device, its use requires care and proper training.

On the surface, using the handle seems to be a good way to avoid wear and tear on the hands, but the reality is that this practice will generally increase the risk of losing control of the lower or rappel. While Hugh mentions that “the belayer has to have the presence of mind, and the training, to release the brake handle,” most people will never develop this ability and in a panic situation, the normal reaction will be to pull down on the handle and lose control. The tendency of humans to grab harder whatever they're grabbing when surprised or panicked is well documented (see “white-knuckle” in the dictionary).

A good habit to get into when using a Grigri is to use a glove when lowering (and belaying, for that matter). Almost any old leather glove will do, though I prefer fingerless for dexterity. Like developing any new habit, it may seem odd at first, but quickly becomes second nature. If you don’t have a glove, try running the free end of the rope through a carabiner clipped into the harness belay loop and use the ‘biner as an extra friction surface when lowering. CAUTION: do not use the GRIGRI attachment ‘biner to do this; use a second carabiner. Opening the GRIGRI ‘biner while under load is needlessly risky.

From: Loui Clem

One popular misconception is that the GrGri's handle is intended for controlling a descent. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what device you are using, your brake hand is the key element. THe camming action of the GriGri may help catch a fall, but the belayers brake hand is where the buck stops. Even when the cam is opened it works very much like a sticht plate concept where the bend in the rope provides friction and the belayers hand provides braking action. In a lower, the belayers hand is, again, the key element. With the cam held open, a lower can be easily controlled with the belayers brake hand.

From: Stefan Axelsson

Petzl clearly states that you should hold the cam open and control the descent with your brake hand, like every other belay device on the market.

And having tried both ways I can only agree with them, controling with the lever increases the risk of accidentally dropping/hurting someone, and it's a risk that buys you nothing!

Threading it backwards

From: Jason Kester

Last summer I took a fall with a bolt at my waist and ended up on the ground because my belayer had threaded the gri-gri backwards. On the bright side it was the softest 30 foot ground fall of my career.

From: MT

The only time I have seen a Gri-gri come close to 'failing' in stoping the initial part of a fall is when someone had thread it in reverse and did not realise it. Fortunately, they had still used both hands on the rope and were able to control the fall by the technique below. I have never seen a Gri-gri completely fail.

When the Gri-gri is reverse threaded, bending the rope around the side and under can create more than enough friction to control the lowering to rethread or a fall.

Light climber, high rope-drag, icy ropes, thin ropes

From: Petzl Gri-Gri Technical Notice

Attention: the friction

Light falls and featherweight climbers:

Multiple friction points on a long run-out will limit the shock-force transmitted to the device

In a similar way, the weight of a light climber, or the load of a sliding fall, may delay or prevent the locking action of the GRIGRI.

Authorised Uses:

The GRIGRI is a belaying device for the leader or second on a rope. It is for use only on single UIAA ropes from 10 to 11 mm diameter. The GRIGRI can also be used as a descender on ropes of 10 to 11mm.

From: Chris Maytag

before I was educated (the hard way), I used my grigri with a brake hand, but not a particularly *attentive* brake hand. My partner fell, the grigri didn't lock immediately (she was very light and the slab was low angle, so forces were just shy of enough to close it). Thirty-plus feet later, and after finally losing some skin on my brake hand (which should have been there in the forst place), I/we/it stopped her fall. I've since learned how to properly use the device, and take every oportunity to educate people I see misuse it as I did.

From: Bob Harrington

It's not a good idea to rely on the force of the fall to close the cam anyway, because with lots of rope drag or a light leader, it might not close and the rope slips through the device -- you should either close the cam with your braking hand, or move your braking hand to the braking side of the rope.

From: Jon Poulson

I have used the grigri on wet and iced ropes. I have never had a problem. You need to use it like you would any belay/rappel device, keep your hand on the rope applying more/less friction when necessary. If the cam fails to lock, you still have the friction of the rope running over the edge of the grigri to control your decent speed.

Cam held open by a foreign body

From: Bill Yerazunis

The official Petzl propaganda sheet cautions that situations where the cam is pressed open by rock or 'biner can cause the GriGri to fail to work

From: Dave Buchanan

The Gri-Gri slammed into the draw, with the cam taking the brunt of the impact. For whatever reason, I did not get speed-lowered. I'm not quite sure why.

From: Greg Daughtry

There are two reasons why you did not get speed lowered:

1) 11 feet off the ground, your belayer was suspended in air, with the climbing rope under the tension of her full body weight. Provided that your belayer still had her hand on the brake side of the rope, this presents a lot of force for the cam to lock. The device was locked prior to hitting the draw, which is a big distinction to the warning case presented on the Petzl web site about belaying with a bolt clipped just above the gri gri, on the leader side.

2) Even if the cam were completely open, the gri gri is still a pretty reasonable friction device. So long as your belayer doesn't take her hand off the brake side, you've still got a pretty good catch. This is why loading the gri gri backwards isn't the end of the world.

From: Jonas Wiklund

I am well aware of petzl's warnings regarding these matters, but I see no physical reasons for failure of grigri when the belayer gets yanked up to the first draw of a steep route. If the cam is slammed open, whats holding the belayer up in the air, forced againts the draw? Momentum? Magic? An antigravity belt? The grigri is open, hence the belayer start to decent down the rope.

From: Rex Pieper

I took a 60 footer on the Black Tower pitch on Zodiac in '97 when a fixed KB blew a few minutes after I was standing on it. The fall length wasn't caused by more gear ripping as a big alumnihead caught me. Instead, a small pebble got wedged INSIDE the GriGri, not allowing it to lock up in a fall. My partner finally got the rope under control, stopping me 10 feet above the ramp at the base of the Tower.

From: Robert Fonda

Always, always check the cam device BEFORE you get on the rock. Small pebbles and the like can get into the device and cause the cam to fail. I check mine constantly when I am belaying someone (especially at Josh). All it takes is for your partner to kick sand down and jam your device!

Paying out slack

From: John Baker

With a GriGri, one way to feed slack fast is to squeeze the cam with the non-brake hand and use the normal brake hand to yard slack. This may be safe if you develop the habit of releasing both hands after each pull, but still you are squeezing the cam at some point in the operation. What if the leader falls right then ? This is where habits enter the picture. A proper grigri habit might be to just let go with both hands. But that's just not going to happen with an old dog like me after 20 years of body belays and sticht plates. My instinct is to grab that brake side with the brake hand and pull it around towards my tailbone and hunker down with all my might.

And my non-brake hand ? I don't even think about it. I'm probably pulling or squeezing with that too, just as part of the overall hunkering process. So if it started out squeezing the cam, that's probably what it's still doing. Harder than ever. And that's no good.

I dropped a friend in exactly this manner I believe. But it happened so fast that I wasn't really sure what went wrong until thinking it through later. He demanded (over my better judgement) that I use a grigri, even though that's not what I normally use. Luckily he wasn't hurt, but I felt like a very low turd.

From: Eric Coomer

Actually, the best way is to squeeze the cam with the pinky finger on your brake hand(try it, it's a natural grip) while yarding slack with your non-brake hand. This keeps your brake hand closer to the brake side of the rope.

What if the leader falls right then ?

Part of the reason for using just the pinky finger- theoretically you shouldn't be able to apply enough pressure on the cam to keep it open. If you're using your thumb or palm of your hand it is a possibility...

From: Gary Fike

Right. I've learned to feed line this way almost as fast as I can with a tuber. Also, you're much less likely to hold the cam open than you would be dicking around with the lever.

Gri-Gri causes higher impact on climber and gear

From: Lanier Benkard

There are also cases where an ATC is safer, such as anywhere the pro is dicey, a very common situation. I have not ever seen anyone able to safely give a dynamic belay with a Grigri (in such a way as to eliminate risk of dropping the climber), but that doesn't mean it isn't possible, it just means that it is hard.

From: Chris

The reason a gri-gri is not recommended for trad climbing is because it provides too static of a belay. an atc or similar device allows for slightly more rope slippage then a gri-gri, which provides more of a dynamic belay, which lessens the impact on the protection. you can find more about this in petzl's website, in their technichal manual.

From: Gary Foster

GRIGRI's are very controversial do to the fact that they are, for the most part, improperly used. They teach bad habits for beginners and are only recommended sport climbing. The reason for this can be found in any Petzl catalog. All Petzl catalogs contain a technical manual in the back describing the use for all their products. This is what it says about the GRIGRI:

"The locking action of the GRIGRI places great load on the point of reversal of the rope direction (the last point of protection). On crags which have been equipped for sport climbing the UIAA requires anchors to have a strength of 25kn. In this case there is no problem. On the other hand the GRIGRI is not recommended for traditional gear climbing or on ice, where anchors may have strengths less than the value recognized by the UIAA."

From: D. Condit

The only way a Gri Gri would place more load is if the belayer always slipped when using other devices (making a dynamic belay.) This Gri Gri stuff is a bunch of b.s. legalism that some layer thought up...how rediculous. It's the dynamic rope that absorbs the energy, not the belay device.

From: Mike Rawdon

ACCORDING TO PETZL, the Gri gri slips (despite full "lock off") at 9kN vs 2 kN for the other devices you mention.

That's how.

I guess someone may want to argue that THEY can hold more than 2 kN (abot 450 lbs) with their ATC or whatever. That should be easy enough to test ; hang two partners off your haul loop and then do a controlled one-strand rappel. I'd pay to see that!

From: Jay Tanzman

The question is not whether belaying with a gri-gri is dynamic or not, it is whether it is sufficiently dynamic to protect the leader. There is at least one case where it is not: steep sport routes. We have discussed this in considerable detail recently. When a leader falls from above his protection on a steep route he will swing into the wall if the belay is not sufficiently dynamic. The force can be bone shatterring. Sport climbers who use gri-gris routinely jump up as the leader's weight comes onto the rope to dampen the swing into the wall.

What should I do if my tri-cams need new slings? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Chris Weaver

You can generally tell when webbing gets too old to use safely by examining the color and feel of it. If the webbing is brittle (as yours seems to be), or if the color has faded significantly since it was new, it is probably a good idea to discard it. Before you go throwing out your Tricams, though, I suggest you find one that is relatively new and compare yours against it. Tricam webbing is a bit stiffer than regular webbing even when new, and you may find that yours are o.k.

Updated as of 2003

From: Nick Parker

Apparently Yates has become the authorized USA repair center for Camp, and they now will resling Tricams. Yates is getting the correct webbing directly from Camp (see message from Yates below, received yesterday).

From: Karen Yates

We have some webbing now to do the smaller sizes (up to a 1.5). We are awaiting webbing from Camp to get a full go ahead. We should be ready to go on all sizes in September [2003] if the webbing is shipped as projected.

Obsolete

From: Jerry Cagle

I recently inquired with Yates gear about reslinging some old tri- cams I have. They directed me back to Lowe saying that they were no longer doing this procedure due to lack of availability of the requisite webbing.

I wrote to Lowe as directed and was told by Ralph Imbrogno in Consumer Relations: "I am sorry to inform you that due to liability Tri- cam slings are not replaceable. Replacement of the sling would void the warranty. Signs of significant wear on the sling is your indication that you should retire the unit."

From: Mike Faff

I just talked to a person at Wild Things (find their address and phone in Rock & Ice). They will re-sling tricams for around 5 bucks a piece.

Wild Things DOES NOT resling tricams. they will do any other type of cams, but not TRICAMS. perhaps you talked to the same idiot sales- person that i talked at first. they said they would resling tricams, but when i began to ask questions, someone who knew something about climbing gear was put on the phone. this person told me that they DO NOT RESLING TRICAMS anymore because they no longer have the proper webbing.

From: Paul Heinrich

I looked into this last year. I contacted both Yates and Wild Things, neither companies re-sling Tricams because they can't get the proper webbing (at least that's what they told me). Also, according to the manager at Yates, nobody in the US re-slings Tricams. He suggested that maybe one could contact Camp (the manufacturer who makes them for Lowe) in France. Finnaly, the guy at Yates suggested that you only need to replace or re-sling Tricams if the sling is visably damaged (ie. torn stitching or cut webbing), he stated that age (unless the Tricam was left out in the sun for long periods) wasn't a problem. The bottom line is: If the webbing is so bad that you're afraid to climb on it, retire the unit (they're not that expensive).

From: Alex Feinberg

I've been told by several sources that by the time the original webbing needs to be replaced on the smaller Tri-Cams, the pin that holds the webbing may also be suspect and the piece should just be retired. Last time I asked, Lowe would not resling old Tri-Cams for this reason.

From: Nathan Sweet

Don't resling them by pressing out the little pin. They can break around the holes.

From: Clyde Soles

Drive the steel roll pin 3/4 of the way out with a drift pin or flat-tip punch, then slide in a spectra quick draw. Press the pin back in and voila.

Um, bad tip. Lowe was especially concerned about that procedure because of high potential for stress fracturing the fairly thin aluminum. When I tested some old tricams, that's where they all broke...not the ratty looking sling.

From: Kevin Courter

As far as reslinging goes, when I got the lawyer-line from Lowe about a year ago, I hand-tied them with 9/16 or wider tubular. I tied them a bit longer than stock, then used white tape to keep the sling fairly stiff and "together" - so that there aren't two straps flopping around all over. I left the knot visible so it can be checked frequently for slippage/abrasion. I put the knot towards the 'biner end of the loop to avoid abrasion and/or interference with placements. I like the hand-tied better than the originals, due to the extra length. I would, of course, like a nice bar tack sew-up job even better because of the knot's bulk, but they work quite well in general.

From: Gary Ray

Ragged Mt. Equipment in Intervale, NH reslings lots of gear, but I don't know whether TriCams are on the menu. Give 'em a call at 603-356-3042. Barring that, try 3/8 inch webbing secured by water knots. Wrap the sling in duct tape and you've even got the rigidity of the original TC sling. Not only do I suggest it, but I'll actually DO it when my TC slings start looking shaggy.

From: Rockrazy

Personally I would be concerned about replacing the slings with anything narrower than the fitted width (available.area) for that cam. A narrower sling might allow the pin to flex and/or bend ujnder load. The fitted slings keep forces perpendicular to the thin aluminium as well.

Safety: Page 1 2 3 4

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