Should I belay off my belay loop or should I use the waist and leg loops? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Dave Wood

At the British Mountaineering Club, Student Club Safety Conference (what a name!) last October this bloke, who is the technical development manager for err Wild Country? Troll? said:

"This keeps on coming up! The belay loop is by far the strongest part of the bloody harness. The rest of the system would fail well before the bloody belay loop ever would. Belay from the bloody belay loop. The clue's in the bloody name."

From: Tom Jones at Black Diamond

Bingo. Give the bloke a biner. Or maybe a crab.

The actual (typical) numbers:

Harness: 15 kN = 3375 lbs-f ( CE standard )

Belay Loop: 20 kN = 4500 lbs-f (typical, not hard to achieve).

The CE spec also requires that the belay loop be tested to 15 kN.

As the harness guy at BD, here's my recomendations.

1. Follow the manufacturer's instructions.

2. When tied into the rope, I recommend clipping into the tie in loop too. This way there will be no load across your harness from the belay to the anchor.

As a climber with some experience, here's some further ideas:

1. If you like it better clipped into both tie in points, do it that way. There's plenty of strength available. There is some small chance of weird loading the carabiner.

2. You can also just clip the waist tie in point, if that works for you.

Whatever you do, find a way that works for you - where you maintain control over the belay.

From: Tom Jones at Black Diamond

There has been a lot of chat recently about the use and limitations of harness belay loops. I would like to lay out the thoughts behind and uses for belay loops as we have found through use and testing.

History

Belay loops were invented about 10 years ago to solve the problem of having no obvious place to clip into a harness for belaying and rappelling. Some bright guy thought of making a stout webbing runner, that the structural parts of the harness would pass through, that would then stick out in front and be easy to use. The idea caught on because many people found it convenient. Some harnesses do not allow for the use of a belay loop due to geometric constraints.

Design Constraints

A harness is designed to catch falls either as the faller or as the belayer. The maximum loads felt by a faller are suspected to be at most 15 kN ( 3372 lbs ). This is the load at which other parts of the system start breaking, such as the rope at the tie in knot, the top biner through the protection, and the faller's body being broken by the forces of de-acceleration. Thankfully, very few falls reach forces anywhere near this high, but we can view it as an upper limit.

Can this force be felt by a belayer too ? You bet. The worst case fall is where the leader does not get any pieces in, then pitches off and falls directly on the belay. Climbers are usually smart enough to clip the lead rope into a draw on the anchors, so that the belayer experiences an upward force, but this is not always the case. The leader could fall directly on the belayer with no intervening pieces so the belay loop system must be able to hold that 3372 lbs of force.

This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop, to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor. Wear and Tear

So if the belay loop is so strong, why don't I tie into it? Because you would wear it out very fast. The established tie in points on harnesses are usually covered with a durable cloth or webbing to take the brunt of the abrasion from the rope being tied in. Falls, hanging and hangdogging tend to move the rope slightly, under load, against the harness, and this results in a lot of abrasive wear. If you subjected the belay loop to this wear, it's unprotected webbing would wear out pretty quickly.

In belaying, the situation is a little different. The belay biner has a lot less friction so it slides to the top of the loop right away. There is very little webbing on webbing sliding. Belay loops do fuzz up a little from the forces of the biner, but not very fast. It helps that belay forces are usually much less than falling forces.

No Belay Loop Harnesses

Many harnesses do not have a belay loop, usually because of geometric constraints. Is it safe to belay off a carabiner clipped through both the waistbelt and leg loop?

On first look, you might think this is a classic case of triaxial loading of a carabiner - a definite no-no. At some modest load, however, the belayer's body will change position and the harness webbing will stretch so that the bottom of the belay carabiner gets loaded correctly. The load required to do this is pretty low, probably lower than the 6 kN side loading strength of a weak 'biner.

The greater danger is that the carabiner will get stuck on something or that the gate will get stuck open by webbing or a piece of clothing. We have all experienced the locking sleeve getting stuck on something while belaying, and this could be dangerous. I got my finger pinched once when I was straightening out my belay biner at the point of impact. Ouch!

I have seen returns from where the locking belay biner was not fully closed when loaded. I think they got stuck in the climber's clothing, but the climber insists that the gate was closed and locked. Maybe the first instance of a gate pin tunneling out the end of the biner.

Without a belay loop, it is VERY IMPORTANT to have the belay forces transfer directly to the anchor, on a multi-pitch climb. I usually belay off my tie in loop, essentially using that as a belay loop.

Summary

The belay loop is designed for rappelling and belaying only. Use it if you find it convenient. If you tie the rope directly into it, you will wear it out very quickly. On multi-pitch climbs, it is important to have the forces of the belay link directly through to the anchor, usually by clipping the belay biner into both the belay loop and the tie in loop of the webbing.

Understanding the forces involved in climbing is helpful in climbing safely. Understanding the limitations of your gear is essential.

From: Ken Cline

Using the belay loop per manufacturer's directions:

1) prevents three-way loading of the belay carabiner.

2) prevents three-way loading of the harness buckle (most can theoretically slip if this happens).

3) prevents belay forces from shifting to the belayer's side, potentially resulting in loss of control.

4) reduces the risk due to other failure modes that I don't know about, but harness makers are aware of. They seriously consider this stuff, you know.

If, despite these reasons, you're still paranoid about relying on a single belay loop, then BACK IT UP! One simple backup is simply to clip both the belay loop and loop of rope where you're tied in. You trust your rope(s), don't you?

From: Douglas McMullin

I agree that belaying from the belay/rap loop is the best for the belay carabiner. I however hate it and do not do it. I prefer the way a biner sits when cliped through both the waist and leg loop part of the harness.

Yes the biner gets sort of tri loaded, but not really. Even in a hard fall (on my harness anyway) the leg loop portion of the harness never sees any load - what so ever. So its not actually being loaded three ways. Also even in a worst case fall the amout of force that hits that biner even in a three way load comes no where close to the breaking point.

From: Steven Cherry

The triax fear seems pretty ungrounded to me. When the leader takes a good fall, the belay biner orients itself and the two parts of the tie-in come pretty close together. What I like about the tie-in point belay is that the rope runs horizontally through the belay device (using the belay loop means the loop has to be twisted to get the same angle).

From: Karl Baba

I agree that the danger of cross loading is extremely minimal. Belaying off a biner clipped through the waist and leg loop parts of the harness gives you more room to use your hands feeding and taking in rope, thus giving the leader a better belay. Thus, you give up a tiny bit of safety and get a bigger bit of safety in return.

Another factor to consider regarding crossloading, if you belay solely off the belay loop, the biner flops around much more freely including positions loading the minor axis of the biner. If it is clipped in your whole harness, it stays put, which, when met with a stron upward pull (fall) generally bunches the force and webbing at the bottom of the biner with the rope and plate at the top of the biner, really only loading the minor axis.

From: Brooke Hoyer

When top roping or sport climbing, I like to put the biner through the belay loop and the waist belt loop. The biner doesn't flop as much in this position and I feel more comfortable when catching the climber. As always, YMMV.

From: Will Abraham

I prefer to forego the belay loop and simply clip the biner, gate out, through the leg loops and waist belt. (like tying in w/ rope...) It's the only way that keeps my belay device with the guide hand left and brake right, instead of guide hand far and brake near. I would need an extra link to make it oriented right and that would be bad news and too high.

From: CJ

I use a BD Alpine Bod harness which does not have a belay/rappel loop. In the three years that I have used it, I really haven't noticed much of a problem with cross-loading, although I have always been acutely aware of the possibility of it happening. However, last weekend, on rappel just after leaving the anchor at Joshua Tree, I glanced down and saw that due to the cross-loading of my locking biner, the rope (and my full weight) was running over the biner gate. Needless to say, I was not pleased.

I hate to think of what could happen if my biner was dynamically loaded while in this position.

My next harness will have a belay/rappel loop. Also, I'm tempted to buy the "DMM Belay Slave" locking pearbiner that essentially makes loading the gate impossible. (I haven't seen one myself, but it was reviewed in one of the recent editions of Rock & Ice.)

From: James Sneeringer

Having belayed both ways many times, and keeping in mind the past very numerous posts and threads on this topic, I would say neither is "better" than the other. In either case inattentive belaying can cause a cross-loading, and in either case being attentive to the situation can prevent it. I acknowledge that belaying through the loop puts one more link in the chain of safety which could fail, but at some point caution turns to over-caution. Where that point is is up to you. Keep in mind that Royal Robbins didn't even like belay devices when they first came out, because if the device fails, the rope runs free, rather than around the body for a back-up hip belay. And yet today almost everyone uses a belay device without a second thought to this scenario. So at some point the safety of a certain piece of equipment is taken for granted (largely), and for me, a belay loop in good condition fits that bill. I still would not, however, tie in to a belay loop directly while leading. Call me old fashioned. :-)

From: Jacob Dockter

The reason one doesn't tie in to them is wear and tear on the belay loop. The harness tie in points are padded with extra material so the rope is not wearing into load bearing points.

From: John Davis

one should indeed not tie into the belay loop.

I'd just like to point out that the above statement should really be 'one should indeed not tie into the belay loop unless that is what the harness manufacturer explicitly states you _should_ do'.

There are _some_ harnesses that are designed for you to _only_ tie in to the belay loop (certain models of Aspiring harnesses made here in NZ for example), and in that case you should follow the manufacturers instructions. If you ignore the instructions on those and tie in 'normally' you'll get all sorts of loading the harness wasn't designed for.

From: Al Black

Yes, read the instruction manual for the harness that you own, and follow that advice.

Should I anchor when in belaying a leader? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Daniel Eubank

The most important point of a belay is to keep the leader fall from being a grounder. With that said, in multi-pitch climbing, you want to be tied into the anchor so that a fall does not pull you off of the belay anchors. In single pitch trad and sport climbing, you can lessen the severity of lead falls by providing a dynamic belay with your whole body. I have held 25 foot sport whippers by jumping at the point of rope stretch to dampen the forces of a lead fall and to reduce the impact forces of the leader against the rock. If the fall is a potential grounder, the belayer should suck up rope rather than give rope on the belay. A good belay can reduce the risks of injury to the leader.

From: Brad

There are plenty of times when it is important to have the belayer anchored (with an upward pull anchor) while belaying from the ground. It keeps the belayer from getting yanked into the wall or dragged up the wall by the falling leader, (especially if there is a weight difference) either of which could lead to the belayer letting go of the rope.

From: Ben Boykin

Trip --- I mean Fall Report: Baba Cool, Rushmore, Oct 1992.

"Lookin' great, Don! Hang in there. Stick it, man."(Belayer, 62 Kg and not clipped in, tucks feet under ledge as globs of adrenergic sweat rain down from the muscle-bound 95 Kg leader)

"Aaiiggghh!! Aauuuuggggghhhhh... (falling twenty meters)"

"AaaaauuuuuggggghhhHHCCCKKKK!!!! (62 Kg creampuff belayer Yanked up in to first quickdraw, 12 feet above former belay nook)"

"Ah! I didn't die! I didn't die! Thanks for catching me man! Whew!"

"(Belayer peels melded crotch from BD Quicksilver rope-side 'biner, weeping unashamedly)"

From: Paul W

In my opinion, it is more important to protect the climber and gear placements with a dynamic belay than to protect the belayer from being pulled up the wall a little. A belayer must be ready at all times for the climber to fall, and should act or react accordingly to the fall...if this means being ready to be pulled up, so be it.

In cases where there is a significant overhang or other such obstacle in the path between climber and belayer, or the belayer is in danger of falling from a ledge or shelf, a belay anchor would certainly be a good idea, but in most cases a dynamic belay offers superior performance over a static one.

From: Christian

If you want to protect your placements, place a directional. Place good gear and it protects you and your second/belayer. Anchor your belayer and it protects your second/belayer and you.

A well performing belay system is one that protects all involved. I've seen folks get yanked as high as a kite belaying on "sport routes" and it didn't add at all to the "performance" of the belay or the fall. In fact I once fell trying to clip the final shuts of a climb, with all the associated extra rope out, and my belayer was caught by her haul loop 5 feet in the air. I would have rather have had her firmly anchored on the ground and not risk the potential injury to her if she hit anything and injury to me if she dropped me or the potential of me ending up minus five feet off the deck.

From: Nick Parker

Others say do because an unanchored belayer may get freaked when they are lifted off the ground and may let go of their brake-hand (I wouldn't want this person belaying me)....

You can say that, but someone letting go of the rope to protect their head is not all that far fetched, because it's a natural (instinctive) reaction. Lots of people have been dropped this way, and some of them are dead. Heck, even experienced climbers have let go of their own rappel rope when their feet slipped and their face was rushing into the rock.

What you do has to match the situation. Sometimes it's best to anchor, sometimes it's best not to. The worst thing you can do is to make a rule and dogmatically stick to it, oblivious of what's around you.

From: Daivd Emrich

Your belayer may leave her/his feet. Big deal; the important thing is that they remain in control of the brake.

There's a potential problem if the belayer and the climber collide.

I've been pulled up past where the the much heavier climber fell. If we had collided, I may not have been able to retain my hold on the brake, let alone on conciousness.

While the belayer should be positioned to have a minimal horizontal pull, it's good to be positioned to avoid a collision as well. It doesn't seem difficult to chose a safe location though.

From: Geoff Jennings

I don't care how competent they are, a 120 lb person (and I've climbed with several) is likely to get yanked around with me on a TR fall, let alone me on a lead fall, and I don't care how experienced they are. The anchor/don't anchor thing is hugely variable. it's the whole "YMMV" thing, and making blanket statements either way is foolish.

From: Jay Tanzman

In general, it is better not to anchor the belayer when it might be important for the belayer to be mobile. Specific situations include:

1. If there is a lot of rockfall, then anchoring the belayer can kill both the belayer and the leader. One area I climb at frequently is very chossy. Belayers are almost never anchored there, and, in fact, belayers rarely stand directly beneath the leader.

2. If there is a chance that the leader might ground or hit a ledge, then anchoring the belayer prevents him from running back to take in rope. If the belayer is anchored, he can take in only an arm's length, which might not be enough.

3. If the belayer is using a Grigri, then in order to make the belay dynamic, he must be free to jump up, be pulled up, or move into the rock as he takes the falling climber's weight; otherwise, the belay will be static.

From: John Kramer

I personally do not anchor when I am lead-belaying in the gym but I'm 190lbs and even though my usual partner is 230lbs he has yet to lift me off the ground but I tend like to give a more dynamic belay because without it you can actually feel the walls shake when he falls. Outside I have used anchors when the belay station is on rather treacherous terrain of if my partner might be doing any extensive hangdogging. So like many things in climbing you should adapt your technique to your situation and try to avoid the mind set of this is wrong or that is right.

From: Steven Cherry

The softer fall is just one reason. The main reason, at my gym at least, is that it's important for the belayer to be able to move around, keep the rope in a good position relative to the climber, and so on.

From: Jerry Bargo

Granted, there are few justifications for a belayor not to be anchored. However, if running/jumping may save your partner from serious injury without putting yourself in serious jeopardy, remaining unanchored may be a good idea. Discretion prevails...

From: Ken Cline

Having the belayer run during a fall can be a useful technique in certain circumstances. In particular, the first pitch of runout slab routes with bad bolts (e.g. at Tuolumne Meadows, CA, Stone Mountain, NC, or Bellefonte Quarry, PA) is sometimes best protected using this method to limit the distance the leader falls. Note that falls on climbs like this are generally semi-controlled slides which to not generate much speed or fall forces.

As has been pointed out, this is a bad idea in most other circumstances.

A belayer should only be running downhill in case the leader is in danger of hitting a ledge (or the ground), or in cases where the fall forcesare negligable (such as in a sliding slab fall). In the first case, fall forces are the least of your concerns, and in the latter the forces are low.

From: Barbara McCann

Another risk results from the belayer moving further from the initial piece of placed (gear, not bolts) protection. This puts greater upward force on the initial piece, and if the initial placement is not multi-directional, a zipper effect could result.

From: Mike Yukish

While belaying once, I first was almost beheaded when a stone knocked loose bounced off of a rock at the bottom, turned from vertical to horizontal path, split in two, then whizzed by both ears.

So I moved up slope a little to belay. When my pal (?!?) fell, he dragged me off of my feet, and I slid down the slope through some shrubberies with lots of spines. Ouch. Lesson learned? Don't climb with <name deleted>. Also, anchor in out of the way of rockfall.

From: Steven Sillaway

Yes, rockfall is a danger; and yes if you are tied to the bottom anchor you are immobile but you can set the bottom anchor far enough away from the cliff to effectively eliminate the risk of rock fall. The important thing to remember if you do this is that you must set a BOMBPROOF directional anchor as your first piece to avoid the zipper effect and losing everything.

See also:

Belaying the Leader Unanchored by Carl Adams (.pdf)
How do I prevent injury to the leader on overhanging routes by providing a dynamic belay? on Tradgirl

What knot should I use to tie webbing? / What are the safety concerns when using water knots? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Hal Murray

The water knot works well in webbing that is wide relative to its thickness. The fisherman's works well in round cord/rope. In between, you get to try it and see which looks or feels better.

Actually, I prefer the beer knot to the water knot.

From: Iceman

The overhand knot is, above all other knots, approved by UIAA for rappel rope tying allright, but certainly not for webbing. The knot dynamics in rope and webbing are quite different.

From: Ken Cline

Water knots have a disturbing propensity to untie themselves just after luring you into a sense of complacency. I've had my slings come loose, and I've seen fixed rappel slings that have untied themselves. My rules for using water knots are to tie them cleanly, leave long tails, thoroughly tighten them, and check them regularly.

From: Tom Moyer

Anecdotal evidence exists to suggest that water knots - commonly used to join webbing into a sling - sometimes fail by slipping. I have found through testing on a load frame that this knot gradually slips when cycled repeatedly with loads as low as body weight. When the tails have slipped all the way into the knot, it fails. This resolves the concern I have had about "mysterious" failures of this knot. I believe it is completely safe to use as long as it is checked and found to have sufficient tails before loading.

From: Karl Lew

I taped the ends of my water knots with plastic marking tape. That way my eyes subconsciously register the normal distance between the marked ends (about 6"). A slipping end would register in my brain as "hey, something wacko here", and I'd take a closer look.

From: Brutus of Wyde

Bottom line is, water knot is easy to untie for retreat purposes, is somewhat subject to slippage and should be examined before each use of the sling, and does not sufficiently weaken sling in good condition that such weakness is a concern. All four locations where sling exits the knot should be tightened prior to use.

From: Jacob

I've seen plenty of water knots come untied. I don't think that means we shouldn't use them, but they should always be checked. It may seem anal, and they may never have untied on you, but it only takes one time for it to kill you.

From: Mort Elison

I have a bunch of old Friends without sewn slings. I've seen those water knots come loose MANY times. I check them every time I climb with them.

From: Allen Sanderson

I still use water knots on slings. Especially on slings that I may use to bail off of since the knot is easier to until than a double fishermans. But water knots do tend to slide and can come untied. Thus you must have a long enough tail so this does not happen. Also you must check the knots regularly. (One time on a serrious route I clipped a friend only to notice that there was no tail !!).

For slings that I really don't care about untying I use a double fishermans.

From: Thomas Trebisky

Water knots do absolutely tend to untie themselves. But I still use them on most of my webbing slings. What I kindof more or less try to do at least sometimes is to check the slings one by one for "creepers" as I rack them over my shoulder before starting a lead. It is wise to leave a healthy tail (2 inches or so) on them to make this quick visual inspection easier. And yes I have found myself putting a sling on a piece only to notice that the end has vanished into the knot somewhere. The double fisherman's knot is superior if you provide the extra length of sling needed to tie it and don't object to the extra length -- as you say it is harder to untie. When you tie a new set of slings with water knots, the only sensible thing to do is to take them all and rig something up so you can bounce full body weight on them and really tighten them up, once again my trust carport comes into play here.

From: Tom Lambert

I have experimented with different knots on static test machines. In general, what you hear is true (imagine that).

1) Sewn runners are a lot stronger than tied runners.

2) Tied runners always break at the knot (and spectra sort of melts if you can keep it from slipping)

3) and finally, the water knot is considerably stronger than the double fisherman. I can't remember by how much, but it is significant, though not anywhere near as great as the difference between tied and sewn runners.

From: Guenter Haas

A further scenario for water knot failure:

In his excellent book "Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis" Pit Schubert (head of the Sicherheitskreis of the german alpine club - a comitee concerned with research in security aspects of alpinism) describes five accidents associated with the failure of water knots (all during TR or rappel). In three of these accidents witnesses apparently saw the knot beeing pulled open on a sharp rock jag. In laboratory experiments he was able to reproduce this behaviour. If the top layer in the knot (the one that slips in your experiments) got hung up on the jag it was possible to pull open the knot by hand alone! To avoid this, he recommends to as far as possible place the knot in a way that it doesn't touch the rock, sew the tails fix - or best use sewn slings.

From: Andrew Davies

A tip for water knots in webbing slings: not only leave a decent end, but stitch the ends down with nylon thread. Mine have never been a problem since. I am still paranoid, and run an eye over them every day of every trip though.

From: Ken Tubbs

One of the reasons I use water knots to tie webbing is that they can be untied to obtain webbing for rap anchors. I too have stitched the ends down but am careful not to do it too well, making it difficult to break the stitching. I also prefer cotton thread since it is not weight bearing and has a lower tensile strength than nylon.

Also, after having done this I'm not convinced that it really does any good. The stitching does not really keep the knot from loosening. However, soaking them in water and bouncing the daylights out of the sling usually prevents them from loosening. It also prevents them from being untied for use as rap slings.... That's where the knife that you carry in pocket comes in...

From: Lowell Skoog

Do most climbers pre-tighten their water knots by hanging on them? I never use a runner until the knot has been tightened so that it is rock-hard. I have encountered people climbing with runners that have loose knots that you can squeeze in your fingers. It's appalling.

From: Eugene Miya

I like the knots tight, but I worry about the descents when I have to untie several runners for looping purposes. I hate taking the time to untie them (getting late, tired, etc.). but all my runners are better tight than loose.

From: Lowell Skoog

My solution to the problem of untying climbing runners for rappels is to not use runners for that purpose. Instead, I bring an extra wad of webbing (9/16" for snow/ice, 5/8" super tape for rock) to be used strictly for rappelling. Before the climb, I estimate how many rappels I may need to fix and bring enough extra webbing to handle it (20-30 ft. is common). During the descent I carry the webbing in a small coil draped around my neck. At each rappel station I use a pocket knife (on a cord around my neck) to take only as much webbing off the coil as I need.

This is especially sensible for multi-day climbing trips. After you've burned through all your climbing runners on rappel, what are you going to climb with? It makes sense to bring extra webbing strictly for rappels. I think you use less webbing in the long run, and save time.

Since I no longer use runners for rappels, I have upgraded to sewn Spectra runners for climbing. They are stronger, lighter, and have no knots to worry about.

From: Tom the Tree Guy

Are you familiar with the Beer Knot? It is illustrated in ON ROPE the revised edition. To tie the knot you first tie an overhand knot in the webbing about two feet from one end. Then one end of the webbing is slid inside the other overlapping about 12 inches. Then the overhand knot is worked back down to the middle of the overlapped ends. They claim the Beer Knot has less strength loss than the Water Knot. I would think that it would slip less too because there is more friction with the overlap.

How did the name come up? Well, the Water Knot is good. But what is better than Water?

From: Nathan Sweet

My gear sling, a sad primitive affair, consists of a piece of 1 inch webbing tied with a water knot. In the course of a season it has slipped to the very ends of the tails. Those suckers were at least 2 inches long in the early spring.

Which brings us to a better digession. I tie my 1 inch slings with beer knots, and they don't SEEM to slip at all. I've been using them all season, and some from all of last, and never have had to re-tie any of them. I keep a few water-knotted slings also, in case I have to tie through a flake or something like that, and have re-tied the older ones once or twice.

The beer knot is in my top ten list of useful things I've learned in this NG.

Here is a page I threw together to show how it's tied: How to Tie a Beer Knot

Here is an exerpt from [a page that no longer exists]:

In the second edition of ON ROPE:

In tests performed at PMI's testing facility in 1995, this knot consistently tensile tested at about 80% of the original strength of the webbing

I don't know if this is bullshit or not,as I have never read this article. Also, I do not KNOW that the tails of the beerknot do not slip under repeatd loading/unloading, they just SEEM not to in my (limited) experiance.

From: Rob Thomas

The only problem I have with a Beer knot is that the thing takes an age to tie. It's not your average everyday tie-and-untie type knot but tends to get used in applications where the knot doesn't need to be untied. Ever. Other than that...great knot.

From: Mike Haden

I've been using tied slings for 17 years on rock and alpine terrain without a hitch (no pun intended). I use super-tape these days, with a water-knot, with a good inspection of the knot ends every couple of months. Anything less than 1-2 inches outside of the knot, retie the knot. Less expensive than sewn slings, and more versatile.

From: Ken Cline

Sewn slings don't suck. They're lighter... and stronger... and less bulky... and often more reliable. Nothing necesarily wrong with tied slings if you check them frequently.

Use a small knife to cut sewn slings for use at rap stations (or use part of your cordelette).

See also:

Water Knot Testing by Tom Moyer
How to Tie a Beer Knot by Nathan Sweet
How do I tie a [whatever] knot? on Tradgirl

Is it safe to use a girth hitch (aka lark's foot) and what are my other options? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Chris Harmston (who was Quality Assurance Manager for Black Diamond at that time)

I just tested two sets of SEWN samples in our test lab.

Sample 1: 2- 5/8" Spectra Runners Girth hitched: Failed at 3678 lbs, at the Girth Hitch knot. This is 1492 lbs below our 3 Sigma rating of 5170 lbs.

Sample 2: 2- 9/16" Nylon Runners Girth hitched: Failed at 3191 lbs, at the Girth Hitch knot. This is 630 lbs below our 3 Sigma rating of 3821 lbs.

Note: these runners are new and do not reflect the strengths of runners which have been in use (they will be weaker!). One sample is not statistically valid. You can expect that many samples would fail below this load I measured if we were to test many samples.

Warning: This test is not an indication that girth hitching your runners is "safe". Girth hitching is not recommended by Black Diamond. If you use this technique to extend your runner length then you are responsible for it. Girth hitching is weaker than using biners to connect the runners.

From: Karl Lew

Girth hitching slings weakens them by around 30% or so. I judge that to be personally acceptable for 27kN slings (spectra or nylon), but I wouldn't call that "little".

From: Thor Lancelot Simon

If you're connecting webbing, cord, or rope to a wire, use a carabiner. Period.

Girth-hitching slings together is considered acceptable by many climbers in certain situations. It is significantly weaker than connecting slings with carabiners, however.

From: Brutus of Wyde

I've seen many climbers over the years use the girth hitch to join slings, including yours truly. I've also used locking, reversed/opposed double carabiners, and other interesting combinations. What is the application? Lead climbing? Top Roping? Lowering a piece of gear to someone? Sport or Trad? Trad or Mountaineering?

Two things come to mind:

o The physics of a particular climbing setup always apply, and may or may not constitute the weakest link in the safety chain: Puting a piece of webbing or rope around a sharp bend concentrates the force applied in inverse proportion to the radius of the bend: a carabiner has a relatively large radius for the sling to bend around, compared to the girth hitch. The most extreme example of this is trying to bend your rope around a really, really sharp knife...... a realtively small force will be concentrated on an extremely small quantity of material....... result: the rope separates. The girth hitch may or may not be the weakest link in the belay chain, but with the strength of modern slings being what it is, I'd take that link over the uncertainties of old bolts, loose flakes with pro placed between, that incoming lightning storm, or many other pitfalls. Which brings us to---

o While the focus on physics of each link in the chain is important, it is also useful to retain a view of the big picture: Will I have enough carabiners to adequately protect the end of this really, really long pitch? As George noted, are there other factors such as rock edges nearby? How much weight can I afford to carry and still crank through the crux? (every carabiner adds to the total....) How many slings do I have, how many carabiners, and where are the best placements to minimize rope drag? In which direction will the force be applied in the event of a fall? In the event of subsequent placements and then a fall? etc. . . .

I don't advocate any one way to join slings. In fact, I usually try to take a few double-length runners along on long routes, and definitely pack them when climbing in the back country. For me, each situation may have its own solution, and on every climb, the situation is constantly changing from one moment to the next.

From: George Bell

Sewn runners are very strong, even if this is reduced 50% by a girth hitch. Carabiners have problems with gates opening, even locked and can be broken right in half if the force of a fall stresses them over a rock edge.

From: Tom Kelly

As has already been stated by a number of people in this thread, extra biners mean additional chances of accidents. This includes accidentally coming unclipped, and accidental cross loading, lateral loading, or cantilevered loading over edges of the extra biners.

Considering that it's almost always "accidental occurences" rather than "gear failures (in it's intended mode)" that lead to climbing mishaps, I think I'll stick to using a weaker, but less accident prone method of connecting slings, whenever practical. I can't think of a single scenario where a girth hitch would accidentally come unhitched. After experiencing darn near twenty years of climbing mishaps, I have yet to see one come undone. I've accidentally come unclipped from a single unlocking biner on at least three occasions. The strength of an unclipped biner is zero, regardless of the 3-sigma rating.

I think common sense dictates that a 20-30 percent reduction in static strength is a small price to pay for a signicantly less accident prone way of connecting slings. As long as you guys keep making good gear, I guess I'll keep thinking of new ways to abuse it. Thanks again for posting the test results.

From: Rob Smith

Quoting from a pal currently doing stuff with PYB.

'They (PYB) have been testing larksfoot slings to destruction & have found that in all circumstances the carabiner failed before the sling'. I believe they also said the only configuration where the sling came close to breaking at the same time as the carabiner was where the larksfoot was around a large tree, if the sling was rotated such that the load is at a tangent to the tree rather than symetrical even this was avoided.

My conclusion is that, yes the larksfoot is weaker than other knots, but I'm happy to use it here and using a carabiner to link the sling around a tree will only weaken the setup as well as effectively shortening the string length.

Warning: All this is third hand & if you die don't sue me! - you may want to see the results published before using said larksfoot etc. etc.

I'm not terribly surprised by this. Most of my slings & carabiners seem to be identically rated at 22kn and these are of course both 'ideal circumstances' ratings with no knots in the sling & 2way, inline, closed gate loading on the carabiner.

In practice the sling loses some strength because of the knot (larksfoot), the carabiner loses some strength because it is 3way loaded when used to replace a larksfoot around a tree. I'm sure you should be able to engineer specific circumstance where one way is better than another but in practice the message seems to be 'larksfoot sling is OK'.

From: Steve Pardoe

Here are some references. The (American) book which prompted my original post was "Climbing From Gym to Crag" by S. Peter Lewis and Dan Cauthorn (Swan Hill / Airlife Books ISBN: 1 84037 251 6) which has loads of illustrated examples of a lark's-foot (AKA girth-hitch) used in a sling, without any warning or qualification that I could see.

Counter to that is the following extract from "The Mountain Skills Training Handbook" by Pete Hill MIC and Stuart Johnston MIC (David & Charles ISBN 0 7153 1091 7) which I've also found in our local library, and is endorsed by the Association of Mountaineering Instructors. It has this to say about the lark's-foot :

"The lark's-foot is included here, not as an essential knot but rather as one to avoid using. It will often be deployed in situations where a clove hitch should be utilised. The lark's-foot is a very weak knot, and it dramatically reduces the strength of a sling when tied around an anchor. It is also often used ill-advisedly to join two slings together, a situation where a screwgate karabiner should be used.

"The only time that a lark's-foot should be used is to attach a sling onto a harness to use as a safety line or 'cow's tail'. In this situation, the sling is threaded through the leg loop and waist-belt central points, taking the same line as the abseil loop, the lark's-foot tied and pulled in snug".

Well, I'm overloaded by all this, but my inclination remains to avoid the lark's-foot wherever possible.

From: Carol Haynes

Better to put the sling double round the tree and put a crab through both end loops.

From: Hugh Grierson

I don't know it it is stronger or weaker than joining slings with knots or biners, but I don't really care since it's sure as hell a lot less likely to come undone.

Slinging wired nuts

From: Jim Cormier

When I first started climbing my climbing partner did not have much equipment and he used to girth hitch his runners to his stopper placements. Bare wire clip in points(like on a stopper) will slice through a girth hitched sling like a hot knife through butter in a lead fall.

From: Thor Lancelot Simon

_Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills_ specifically cautions against girth-hitching a sling to a wire even in an emergency situation, and recommends doubling a sling through a wired piece only as a last resort.

Note that a sling *doubled* through a wire is probably safer than a sling *hitched* through a wire, since the girth hitch itself significantly weakens the sling.

From: Brutus of Wyde

If there was an obvious failure-prone issue with attaching a carabiner directly to a wired piece (*side*-crossloading over an edge for example) and no other placement options were available, in the past I have generally girth-hitched another wired piece to the piece in question, extending the carabiner placement beyond the edge.

From: Sewn Slings on Wire Stoppers (test results from Tom Jones at Black Diamond)

Conclusive Overall Conclusions:

Girth Hitching a NYLON sling through reasonable size Stoppers is OK for low-strength operations, but should be treated with caution. Doubling the sling through, especially on the smaller sizes, is acceptable. Extending with cables suffers from some of the same problems, though to a lesser degree.

Toproping

From: Ted Compton

Any webbing normally used for climbing slings (20+kN rating) is still PLENTY strong for a TR setup after a 30 or 40% strength reduction.

From: George Bell

A girth hitch is fine, as is a pair of DOUBLE biners, gates opposed. Do not depend on single biners in such critical applications as toproping. When scraping along the cliff the gate may come open and you'll never see it from below. My own preference is for the girth hitch for this reason.

Slinging spike anchors

From: Carol Haynes

Just use a clove hitch with spike anchors.

See also:

Climerware: Girth Hitch
Tied Supertape Runner Strength Test
How do I tie a [whatever] knot? on Tradgirl

Will using a magic marker to mark my rope weaken it [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Sterling Ropes (in a newsletter sent by snail mail, 5/2002)

This has been and continues to be hot topic among climbers. The following is preliminary recommendations that were developed from the recent 2001 UIAA Safety Commission, and brief overview of the results of recent and earlier tests conducted by the German Alpine Club.

Recent tests conducted by two rope manufacturers have found significant strength reductions (45% reduction after seven days influence, and more than 50% reduction after three weeks influcene) after application of markers on the rope. In the German study, when the marked portion of the rope was placed on the edge of the orifice and tested, the ropes held significantly fewer falls. These tests were done a few years ago when various other substances were also tested. Urine causes a 30% reduction in number of drops held. Insect repellent apparantly does no harm. Acids, we know, are deadly in the true sense of the word. Clearly there is only a problem if the rope happens to be loaded over an edge precisely at the marked section. It is believed that falls at other places in the rope will not be significantly affected. Tests were done in 1997/98.

It has also been found in previous research and testing that the marker companies change the ingredients in the markers based on availability and price of the chemicals. Based upon these facts and knowing that there is no consistent formula, it is not recommended using marks of unknown ingredients for use on ropes and webbing.

Test Protocol - The marked location was placed directly over the 'edge', i.e. in the plane of the orifice in the UIAA drop test aparatus. This is the location where all ropes break in the test. The number of falls was reduced from 10 to 12 falls down to 6 to 8 falls. Note that the rope is still perfectly safe as long as the marked location does not lie on an edge during a fall. This is an unlikely situation, but we still do not like the odds. The UIAA meeting notes from 1998 state that marking a dynamic rope with a marker, even one that is marketed as a rope marker, effectively cuts the breaking strength in half when the rope falls over an edge at the area marked. NOTE: these problems will not arise with middle or other markings applied by the manufacturer, such as Sterling's whipped center marker.

These findings will be made in an announcement drafted by the President of the UIAA in a warning statement about the use of any marker on plyamid (perlon, nylon) based upon the above tests."

From: Dave Knorr, 5/30/2002

NOTE: these problems will not arise with middle or other markings applied by the manufacturer, such as Sterling's whipped center marker.

Which on my new Sterling rope lasted approximately two raps, causing me, nay, FORCING me to buy some blackmarket inky substance of unknown chemical constitution to reset the mark. I should add that after this whole sordid affair, I have let the stuff bleach out and will now carefully measure out the rope from each end when I rap, obviating the need for such conveniences.

Prior to this every rope I have owned since the mid 1980's has had a middle mark installed with whatever marker seemed handy. The marks were applied and re-applied as they faded from the time the rope was new until it was retired. While I believe the accuracy of the UIAA testing, I have never seen any effect whatsoever from this practice. (I also don't believe I've loaded the mark over an edge, and certainly have not taken any lead falls that loaded the mark)

From: Chiloe, 5/31/2002

Are "strength reduction" and "reduction in number of falls held over an edge" interchangeable terms? To me they sound different. A true 50% strength reduction suggests the marker had turned the rope's sheath to tissue paper, and/or soaked through to damage the core. But that isn't what the tests found.

If marker damage really only affects breaking over an edge (and _not_ straight pull strength), that implies that marking affects the dynamic properties -- ability to stretch or to spread out and distribute the load over the edge. Do these effects matter for situations other than the unlikely mid-rope-edge-loading scenario?

The report (at least, as summarized here) gives no analysis, and raises more questions than it answers.

From: Dan Lehman, 4/25/2002

About the "weaker over time", I think that that simply alludes to the fact that those ropes treated with the markers were tested after 5 days and 30, and generally the 30-day ropes fared worse (which seems reasonable); but how much further any such deteriorization goes isn't addressed. Also, the study showed that superdry ropes were less affected than non-dry, BUT with some anomalies (see below); presumably, penetration by the marker was less.

Also, the "50% weaker" means this: if a sample of a rope sustained 10 UIAA drops new & unmarked, marked samples would sustain only 5. --i.e., UIAA (and largely, it seems, Mammut did testing) didn't do other than drop tests, and those were arranged to put the marked part of the rope at the 'biner-like bend. (Which, thanks, some folks have remarked would be hard to replicate in practice! Though maybe there are implications for accelerated wear/deteriorization of the spot when it passes through a belay device?! --considerably less force, there, but ... ?)

Notably, the UIAA information that I've seen is UNdetailed--no table of ropes & test data, of which markers where used, etc.. I.p., on puzzling finding was that for one brand of rope (unspecified), the NON-DRY rope was slightly stronger after marking (i.e., likely unaffected, and just happened to sustain 1 extra fall along the set of 5 tests), although the superdry of that brand lost 35% fall count.

From: Jason Lucero, 5/31/2002

Six falls with the same middle mark loaded over an edge. Aw, fuck it, who wants to live forever?

From: Ken Cline, 4/25/2002

To be honest, I don't think there is an immense safety issue here. Number of UIAA falls held is not a measure of rope strength. It is not the first parameter I look for when choosing ropes. If the marked ropes still pass a UIAA drop test (as in the example that was cited), they are still way strong. It is particularly comforting to realize that the weakness will be largely concentrated on the sheath, which is easy to inspect. If a marked rope were to fail, it would almost certainly show signs of wear where the sheath was weakened long before it broke.

From: Eric Coomer, 4/26/2002

Right after all this crap was posted- I went out and bought a pen and FINALLY marked the middle of my rope (been meaning to do that for years). If I die, make fun of me please...

See also:

Marking of Ropes by End-users from the UIAA
Middle marks: it's official - discussion and analysis of Sterling's announcement
FREE felt tip markers for ropes! - previous discussion covering similar ground held before the above announcement
How do I mark the middle of my rope? on Tradgirl

Safety: Page 1 2 3 4

Most of the information in this FAQ was originally posted on rec.climbing. If you would prefer to have something attributed to you removed from this FAQ, please contact us.